S5E4 Financial Liberation and Community Care

Are you planning your budget for the end times with your hommies? In episode 4 of the podcast, Leo and I talk about how we can incorporate liberatory financial planning into our safety protocols and how we show up for our loved ones in general. Oh and here's a link to the Ancestor I mentioned: Emma Dupree, Little Medicine Thing. Bless her wisdom!

**Content Warning: This episode covers topics on interpersonal violencel.**

GUEST BIO

Leo(they/he) is an  anti-capitalist financial coach & educator, independent journalist & founder of Queer & Trans Wealth. Unlike most financial professionals, they are not trained to make the rich richer. He is a worker among workers, and does not abide by capitalist definitions of wealth. They are trained to help you spend & save your money in alignment with your values.

CONTACT GUEST
Queer & Trans Wealth website: https://www.queerandtranswealth.org/about

PRODUCED BY: Goddess

MUSIC: 22,000 by Spirit Paris McIntyre


SUPPORT SSC
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FB/IG: @Sunseedcommunity
Subscribe to SSC here

Transcript

UNKNOWN: 0:00

Ah.

SPEAKER_02: 0:42

Hello fellow weird and wild ones. It has been a minute. So much has evolved and changed about your lovely host and me, Goddess, and Sunseed community since season four of the podcast. And I am stoked to share some of the dopest folks I've met, and some of the been in community with, and have learned from along the way in season five of the SSC podcast. So grab your drink, get your snacky snacks, and gather your homies for the end times. End of what? I'm really not sure, but I really hope it's fascism. But I digress, different conversation. Let's get on with the show. You are inspiring. You are inspiring. You are inspiring at least 22,000 times a day. So inspiring. He's so inspiring. Yay, Leo. Thank you. So, so much for being a part of the Sunseas Community Podcast. I'm really honored to have you on today. So I'm going to go ahead and read your bio. So Leo Dehe is an anti-capitalist, financial coach, and educator. Oh, yes. Listen, I was like, wait, did I hit record? And literally I heard it say record.

SPEAKER_03: 2:32

It's

SPEAKER_02: 2:32

okay. I might keep this in because it's just so

SPEAKER_03: 2:36

weird. Listen, there's a Mercury retrograde in Leo. So I've been, I feel like I've been like, okay, slow, steady. Just let whatever happens, just let it happen. I am

SPEAKER_02: 2:52

so weak. Oh my gosh. Okay, I'll go. Okay, let me back up, let me back up. This is, this is totally staying in. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 3:03

Work.

SPEAKER_02: 3:05

Leo Daigie is an anti-capitalist financial coach and educator, independent journalist, and founder of Queer and Trans Wealth. I love that bio. So Leo, how we do this podcast is we start with kind of like a check-in question to warm us up. And then we And so the question is, who are you bringing into the space with you today? Ooh.

SPEAKER_03: 3:55

Who? As in, like, an ancestor or somebody?

SPEAKER_02: 3:57

It can be an ancestor. It can be folks that are still on this plane.

SPEAKER_03: 4:02

Cool, cool. Well, I'm going to start with a what, because I brought my Hello Kitty fake Stanley mug. Oh! it's so cute it's rhinestone there's some ice and fear so you probably hear it

SPEAKER_02: 4:20

wait did you get that custom made

SPEAKER_03: 4:22

no actually my partner got it at a first bargain like one of those like almost like a 99 cent store but stuff is more like five bucks you know like yeah

SPEAKER_02: 4:35

oh my gosh so it's my favorite

SPEAKER_03: 4:38

thing

SPEAKER_02: 4:39

I'm loving this. Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 4:42

And yeah, in terms of who I'm bringing here, um, you know, I've just been doing a lot of research about, um, one of our elders who just passed. Um, her name is Jewel Thais Williams. Um, she, uh, She ran a nightclub here in LA. It was one of the first Black queer nightclubs, and she owned it for 42 years. And yeah, she did a lot of incredible work, used the profits from the nightclub to start a Chinese medicine clinic in the neighborhood so folks can get health care for free, started a housing project for women and children affected by HIV. and yeah just all around good people and so i've been i feel like i've been speaking with her a lot and also speaking with a lot of people who loved her um speaking with a lot of like nightlife folks who are inspired by her so she's she's really with me today

SPEAKER_02: 5:54

Well, may Miss Jill rest with the ancestors. And it sounds like she created a whole legacy of just, like, love and care and joy while she was here on this plane. So I hope that that continues. I know it will.

SPEAKER_03: 6:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 6:11

Yeah, that's beautiful. Thanks, Leo. I think I'm bringing into this space with me... my ancestors that were like which I think was all of them but a lot of my ancestors who were like figuring out what wealth and abundance means to them and like divesting from working for other people and like I want to have my own business and what that meant and also like my grandpa was a hunter and like back in the and I think maybe still now like that was how like my family like offset being poor is like by hunting and there's a quote and I'm gonna oh my gosh I can't believe I'm forgetting the name of this elder slash ancestor but like she talks about how like not feeling poor when it came to food because they always found what they needed on the land and And that quote just, like, really sung to me about, like, what we consider as poor, what do we consider as wealth. And this idea is, like, of, like, my belly was full and it was full of really good things and nourishing things. And I kind of, like, hold that with me. If I can, like, I'm going to remember her name and put it in the description. But anyway, yeah, that's who I'm carrying with me.

SPEAKER_03: 7:47

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 7:48

So providing context for how we met, we met at Funders for LGBTQ Issues 2025 Funding Forward Conference. And I think you came to sit at like the breakfast table I was at and you were rocking like the dopest ass, like one piece. Like I, it was everything. Wait, no, no. Was it, you're like, was it two piece print? It was... It was a two-piece print, I'm pretty sure. Yes. And then were you wearing a one-piece some other

SPEAKER_03: 8:20

time? Another time I was wearing a jumpsuit. I do love a monochrome situation. Yes!

SPEAKER_02: 8:24

Oh my gosh. So basically, iconic outfits throughout.

UNKNOWN: 8:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 8:30

Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 8:31

We love. So that's how the conversation got started. I got so excited when you told me about, you know, your passion work. And yeah, so I'm excited for you to be here. Yeah, thank

SPEAKER_03: 8:47

you for having me.

SPEAKER_02: 8:49

Yeah, you are absolutely welcome. So let's get started there. So how did queer and trans wealth come to be?

SPEAKER_03: 8:56

Yeah. it's an interesting story of how I got here for sure. Cause I will say, you know, um, like I went to art school in college and like, um, was always like painting and writing and doing all these creative things. And never in my life was I like one day I'm going to be looking at people's budgets eight hours a day. Like never, never did I think that, you know? Um, but what happened was, um, I was hired as, um, a journalist in a newsroom to cover personal finance stories. I did that for about three years. And, you know, I didn't, again, like before that I was writing about like sex toys and makeup and fashion, you know, like, so I think like the skills that led themselves to like, that led the skills that led themselves to becoming, you know, a personal finance journalist was like, I know how to make people feel comfortable enough to get them to open up about a really intimate topic such as finance, right? And just get them to talk about that stuff. And I really liked that aspect of it. I just fell in love, honestly, with the folks that I was interviewing. I got to write some stories about the... positive effects of, like, access to abortion for women and folks who were able to receive them and what that did for their life and their sense of agency. I got to speak to families who were affected by anti-trans legislation and, you know, just having to pick up and move across the country with no warning and, like, no savings, usually, and having to go into debt to be able to do those things and keep their families safe and, you know, for them to be able to access healthcare as well, right? So yeah, this is what I was doing. And this is also primarily where I got my training and how I started to understand like, oh, here's like, I wrote some stories like that. And of course, there were some, you know, here's some rich guy and how he managed his millions of dollars, you know, so like, this is sort of like where I got my training and how I got to see like how like all the different approaches that people take in terms of budgeting. And, you know, when I was doing that job, I just noticed like none of the folks in the queer and trans community were really reading my work. And I was so frustrated because I was like, no, we need to know, like we need to know this stuff, you know? And even for me, like knowing this stuff was like improving my life, you know? So I was like, okay, let me have my own thing on Instagram. so that I can begin to like share the stories that I'm writing from a queer and trans lens, right? And when I did that, I was beginning to get the response that I wanted and I was beginning to reach the people who I really wanted to speak to, which is like folks who never got financial literacy in their lives, you know? And so, you know, from there, I always thought it would just be content, to be honest. I always thought I would just be making my little videos and writing my little articles. But like, over and over again, I just kept getting requests like, hey, can you start coaching me? And so I got some training in that as well. And yeah, and then started off from there. I've been doing this full time for like two years now. So yeah.

UNKNOWN: 12:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 12:38

Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mark. Yes. And I love that this started with hearing other people's stories and forming those relationships and being like, this is something that I want to share with more people and be working on with other people. folks that's awesome um also i used to i was in journalism school as well that is so funny i like i mean we yeah like i we use it but it's not like you're like i do not consider myself a journalist anymore but i just takes me back to journalism school and like i i was a fashion um journalist for global panorama which no longer exists oh wow like I did a story on cafe Cardi's as me and my friend Carla, because it's light enough. You know, you can just like bring with you and wear in a cafe, but you can take it anywhere. So cafe Cardi season.

SPEAKER_01: 13:41

Work.

SPEAKER_02: 13:43

So thank you for that. Last from the past. And I, and I love that like through that of your, of your story. So I, Um, your two year plus years of doing this, how, um, what have you encountered in your work that has challenged you to unlearn ideas you once had around wealth?

SPEAKER_03: 14:04

Hmm. Yeah. Um, you know, I had this, I, I like knew this logically going in cause, um, you know, like, this is true, like, everyone's definition of wealth is really different, right? But, like, only at the second year mark has it really sunk into my body, like, oh, right, like, everyone's definition of wealth is different, like, for me, for example, what I define as wealth these days is, like, my time, and, you know, and having clear space on my calendar and having days where like, absolutely no meetings. I'm just spending my days like reading and researching and writing, you know, like, or not, or just, you know, doing my laundry and like watching TV, you know, like vegging out, like those are, like, that's kind of my marker for wealth is like, how, like, can I set up my schedule and my finances in a way that, you know, I only need to work so many days out of the week, right? um that's that's true for me however some other people are like no like for me my definition of wealth is that my work reaches like you know as many people as possible and which means like them you know working more hours and um doing a lot more traveling and like networking and meeting people right um some people define wealth as um you know, having, not being super materialistic in a way, but just having like a home and like two cars and, you know, like some people do have like a more traditional definition. And in my practice, I've been working really hard at being like, okay, if someone's talking about their thing, that's their thing. And I can't be inserting what I think they need to be doing almost, you know, because I really let folks like lead with their definition of wealth and we kind of plan around that, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 16:16

Yeah. You bring up a good point though, because even in your definition of, for the longest, when I thought about wealth and abundance, I thought immediately money and what money can give you. But even in your definition of, or, like, how you apply it with, like, your time and how you want to be spending your time, that actually does equate to, like, how, like, we are paid for our time. Like, there is this through line of, like, and, like, the most rich folks, they often have more free time. And I think we kind of, like, forget that or don't, like, always know that of, like, I forgot what's like the 80-20 rule or like how you like how you spend your time working should basically work for you like less time working but more time for free like for for yourself but what you're saying is also like for some folks maybe working more is like how they get to their version of wealth which i think is completely valid too

SPEAKER_03: 17:30

totally and this is the thing though like goddess there are people who make like stacks of money and they still feel like i gotta go i gotta do my which is like cool, good for them. Like, I know I'm not built that way, to

SPEAKER_02: 17:51

be honest. Yeah, couldn't be me, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 17:53

Right. But like, you know, it sort of depends. Like some folks, like, well, I'll be specific. Some capitalists are like, yes, money for the sake of money, right? But there are folks on the left, let's say, where it's like, Yes, I do need money to live and I'm making enough money, but also like the work that I do is so important that I want, you know, as many people as possible to like know about it. I want to help as many people as possible, right? With the work that I'm doing, which is like cool to them. That is their definition of wealth. And I love that, you know, I think, man, I always feel like when I come into sessions with folks, like, Like I'm a colossal killjoy, you know? But like, cause like to me, when I think about, when I sit with my definition of wealth, as in like having my time back, I just have to make peace with the fact that I cannot help everybody, you know? Like there is a physical limit to the number of people who are going to like read my work and like use that to, you know, help them like budget and, whatever, there's a limited amount of people that I can see one-on-one or in groups or couples. And I have made my peace with that. I'm like, great. To me, I'm almost like, I just say thank you to the ancestors for the fact that there is a stopping point. Whereas sometimes when you, especially if you work for yourself, there's this feeling of like, I need to eat like forever, like for the rest of my time on earth. And therefore I need to like do as much as I can, right? And like, it's a different mindset than like somebody whose definition is more like, oh, I want to help as many people as possible. They then have this mindset of like, my lifestyle like is going to be there's a certain cap to what my lifestyle is also. Right. Cause they're going to spend their time instead of like, let me maximize every wealth opportunity. You know, like that's not their mindset either. Right. So it's like, cool. Like they, for them, the mindset is like, I'm going to have to accept and compromise that, you know, the apartment that I live in is like, this is as big as it gets, you know? Which is like, that's also okay, right? Like,

SPEAKER_02: 20:26

it's just

SPEAKER_03: 20:27

different ways of looking at it. And I'm even thinking about like, you have brought in your ancestors who like, didn't want to work for other folks, right? I think it comes with an acceptance of like, okay, being self-employed is like, the number... the amount of like work I'm willing to put in in the beginning, not just in like direct, you know, sales or anything like that, but more like the networking that maybe it pays off like years later. You know what I mean? Like, like being willing to be more flexible about your concept of time versus like, okay, one hour in$30. You know what I mean? Like,

SPEAKER_02: 21:17

so

SPEAKER_03: 21:18

yeah, I'm, I'm learning a lot, like, it's just sinking into my, I mean, I always knew this, you know, but it's really just sinking in like, oh, yeah, everyone's definition really is different. And also, there's different compromises everyone needs to make within that definition, right?

SPEAKER_02: 21:37

That's a good point. Cause yeah, I think I'm like, I strive to find this sweet spot between like, I don't want to be a martyr, but I do want to work for something that is in alignment with my beliefs. I also don't want to be someone who is over consuming and taking more than what I need. Like, where's the sweet spot? Cause I do want to live well.

SPEAKER_03: 22:04

Totally. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 22:07

very sweet life. I want that for all of us. So I, I definitely hear what you're saying. And then that idea of like, there are certain trade-offs because we both work for ourselves. And there are like, I had to trade, not had to, but I've redefined what it means to create like a schedule and like admin because like, by working for myself, that's something that now I have the opportunity to curate, which is a part of my practices of like, okay, if you need to cure, if you need to do the admin tasks, if you need to fill out the taxes and all of those things, how can you do that in a way that aligns with how you want to be feeling in your day-to-day life and within your work. But that was a trade-off for having someone else do it while also working for someone else's dream.

SPEAKER_03: 23:03

And

SPEAKER_02: 23:05

I will take that trade-off at this

SPEAKER_03: 23:07

point. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 23:09

Yeah, so that's a very good point. A lot of the work you do is around supporting folks. So like, yes, with budgeting, but like how to look at their community overall as like a part of their wealth plan. So what ways of building and supporting our communities have you learned since starting this work?

SPEAKER_03: 23:39

Oh my God, so many things. I mean, I've learned... to never underestimate when a friend has been like, Leo, I see you're going through it. Can I take you to lunch? It's so simple, but it's so powerful. And it's something that I'm trying to do this coming Friday. july 25th for the people in the future um diana ross is playing at the hollywood bowl i know and so i bought me and my partner some tickets and i was like let me buy one extra because i know some friends who would be like wow like a ticket to go see diana ross it would be so fun you know what i mean like like everyone's going through something right now i mean it's wild time so i was like yeah let me just get it and like To me, like, how fun, you know? Yes!

SPEAKER_02: 24:39

I love this. There's something, like, in both examples. In one, a friend saw you having a tough time and was just like... Let me take you out to lunch. Let me get you lunch. And then the other one, you were like, I know there's someone in my life who would really, this would bring someone I care about a lot of joy. And so let me just like get this. And I think in both, there's this spaciousness within where you're at. in your version of wealth where you have capacity to actually, first of all, see when someone is in need and have the capacity to show up for them and not have it stress you out. That feels like wealth. That feels like abundance. Yes. I want to be able to support my loved ones, but have it not stress me out and have it be with ease for the both of us in little things like you know, I have a ticket for you. Just come fam to like, you know, you're having a tough time or like you're going through, you know, becoming a parent, whatever it might be. And be like, let me offer this to you and like, have it, have it not be like such a earthquake of a situation. I love it. I mean,

SPEAKER_03: 26:08

that's the thing too, right? Like, something that happens when folks get really clear about their numbers and like what money's coming in, what money's going out is like folks will then develop the skill also to say, hey, I can't afford that, but here's an alternative that I can't afford. And like, I would still love to hang out with you. Right. I would still love to spend time with you. So like it's a specificity and asking for help, you know, and also beginning to kind of break the stigma of like, well, we can't talk about money. It's like weird to talk about money, you know, but like, like, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've been able to say like to a friend, I got$40, like, you know, for this, for this whole hangout that we're supposed to have, like, how can we make the most of the$40, you know? And this is something that my clients are finding they can do as well. And this is like, like one of the common things that I see is, you know, a lot of people will say like, oh, I'm spending too much money on food and like take out. So sometimes we spend a whole session just getting really clear on breaking food down into three categories, which is basically groceries, you know, your Postmates, DoorDash, all that stuff, like almost like convenience eating, like decision fatigue type of eating. And then like, what is the actual like social, you know, connecting with friends type of dining out. Right. Um, so we break that down and they always have this feeling of like, well, I can't like afford to hang out with my friends anymore. I'm like, actually you can, if you just shift the like decision fatigue budget a little bit more towards social, you know? And yeah, like really, um, clarifies a lot of things, which is like, I do have space to connect with people, you know? Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 28:07

Oh, I love this. And I, I appreciate the breakdown of like groceries, like, like decision fatigue, buying a food versus like social, like as someone who's neurodivergent, like I, for a while there, I didn't have capacity and still don't a lot of days to plan my own meals and cook for myself. Like that energy needed to go to a different part of my day to day. And so I was meal prepping. It just so happens I stopped, not meal prepping, but like buying those like pre-made meals. It just got to the point where I was like, oh my gosh this shit has like no flavor I can't eat this anymore but it was important for me to be like feel comfortable with saying like yeah like um I don't have capacity to buy groceries and make my own meals this is something I need to budget for and prioritize as a part of meeting my accessibility needs um like, and not feel shame with that. And so like going back to your other example of like saying like, Hey, I only got$40 for this. Like I, that is so important because I think we all have people in our lives who have different incomes, have different things that they're prioritizing with their money. And like, that shouldn't prevent us from being able to hang out with them. Like we can hang out on$0, but we can hang out on 400. Like,

SPEAKER_03: 29:40

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 29:42

Well, like, let's, like, meet and meet in the middle somewhere. Yeah. And, like, getting rid of that stigma of acknowledging what we have financial capacity to do, I think is important, too.

SPEAKER_03: 30:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 30:03

Yeah, I feel that. Are any of... the ways in which you like pair wealth with like community care and like support connected to how your blood or chosen family have historically shown up for each other or even ancestrally?

SPEAKER_03: 30:23

I'm just going to giggle. You know what? I'm doing this new thing. Like I realized that my brain is trained to like, let's linger on the, you know, the bad stuff, the bad memories, the like harm that has been caused. And I'm trying to like retrain my brain to remember like, no, what were the good things that this person, that person, you know, they brought into my life. And something I've been, something I really appreciate that I grew up witnessing, my mom is like the most social person I know. Like she is, She always had, like, a ton of friends, and I really admire the way that she, like, kept up with her friendships. So she used to, when she would, like, she would just have, like, cleaning on a Saturday or Thursday night or something, or, like, a bunch of dishes or a bunch of laundry to fold, and every time she would do that, she would call a friend and just, like, you know, like, yeah, what's going on with you? Like, just checking in to say hi. Yeah. That I really appreciate and is something I feel like I do now. And you know what's good about that is I think a lot of us maybe through social media or through like the movies or something, like we have this conception that when you finally ask for help for something, it's like this dramatic thing and like, you know, trumpets play and like whatever, right? And like someone has to come and like save you when you're in this like insanely like hard place. And to me, like this practice that I saw my mom doing, it's like a very, like I'm checking in with you on a consistent basis so that if there was anything that we needed to bring up that's awkward, like, you know, there's kind of this like, it's cool, I'll still call you tomorrow or like next week or whatever, right? So I really appreciate that. And I think her, my mom's thing is during the, when the pandemic started, she and her siblings were, They started to call each other every day. One of her siblings lives in New York. My mom lives in New Jersey. And the rest of them live in the Philippines, right? So they would coordinate. They would get on FaceTime every day and they would pray the rosary.

SPEAKER_02: 33:03

And

SPEAKER_03: 33:05

they still do that now. Are they asking each other for help on their real problems? I don't know. But like, you know, I... to me it's something that I've applied like the consistency of checking up on people so that when you do need help it's not like this dramatic like oh my god you gotta come bail me out like you know like where it's like I can sort of like hey I need I just need to talk through this thing like cool and then like the week after that it's like oh yeah like do you have something you want you know what I mean like it's more measured than like okay, like now I'm getting evicted, which is like, people do go through that. I think it's just hard when, you know, folks aren't communicating along the way, like this is what I need to make rent and like keep my debts current so that,

SPEAKER_01: 33:58

you

SPEAKER_03: 33:58

know, not to, I know that's a really tough experience not to like put anything else on folks' plate when they're going through that. But like, yeah, it's just something I think about, you know,

SPEAKER_02: 34:10

yeah like the only time hearing from someone is like when they're going through something um really heavy and like if we had more you know communication with this person maybe we would have known before it went too far and could have supported sooner or even just like set up the relationship so that it's not awkward talking about really hard shit Yeah, absolutely. I've never seen a picture of your mom. Three women. I don't know how many. Getting together to pray a rose. I don't know what that would look like. It's cute. It's giving.

SPEAKER_03: 34:57

Yeah, it's

SPEAKER_02: 34:58

sweet. Those are really sweet. They're... In your story, it also reminds me of going back to a previous response you had around paying for your friend's ticket or a friend noticing you're having a hard day of... Abundance for me, part of it is like having a life where it feels like I have enough space to actually think about people. Yeah. And I don't mean that in a dismissive way. Like, I truly love all the, like, you know, my chosen family. But I also acknowledge that when we get busy, it's harder for us to check in with each other on the small things. And so then it just feels like we go farther and farther apart simply because we're trying to like... keep up with this like capitalist grind that we don't even want to be on in the first place. And so for me, a button, I like, I remember a time where I was working for myself and also like really intentionally spacious with my time. And I had so much more, I was like checking on folks more often and, And they would be like, I have to go do this, this, that. I'm like, darn, you seem hella busy. I don't want that. But it's good to see you. And now I'm working back toward that. How do I create that spaciousness again? Because I think that there's a wealth in that in itself of having enough time to... to just tap in with folks yeah about like even like small shit it doesn't have to be this hey love you gonna drop by like some I don't know I don't know why I'd be dropping by I

SPEAKER_03: 37:13

mean I'll say this I feel like I've like some of my clients are like just the raddest people ever like I've seen people maybe it's like a partnered couple and they're like living alone and their expenses are really high and they decided you know what we're just gonna move into a different apartment with like two other friends which is a little more non-traditional right but like over time it's still that like we gotta stay tapped in so that we can figure out who we want to live with if that is like a change that we want to make right I have some clients who are also um, this is really cool, actually, like some folks that I've met, um, who are stewards of a susu fund.

SPEAKER_02: 37:59

Oh, I don't know. Okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 38:01

Yeah. And you know, for the listener out there, we'll just describe, um, a susu fund is like everyone puts in, you know, a certain amount of money. And then, um, I think each month, um, on a depending on how many people are in there, like each month somebody gets to take like a payout from the fund, right? And then like whoever gets the payout, it kind of rotates or sometimes it depends on whoever like needs it the most in that moment, right? But yeah, it's the idea of like a collective savings kind of a thing. I hope I'm describing that right, but this is my, this is my understanding of it. And, you know, like things, I feel like we often romanticize, like, this is how, like, look at this amazing collective savings that, you know, these, this group of folks have built, but like, that starts with like trust, like conversations that build trust and, you know, even actions that build trust, you know, like, you know, do you show up on time, you know, or like, it's cool. Not everyone gets to, you know, I mean, I understand CP time, like Filipino time, like to, I get it. But like, even like, you know, do you pick up the phone when I call you kind of thing? Do you answer, you know, like stuff like that, it really adds up into like, can i trust you and then based on that trust can we build an economic system together that is like you know serves us a lot more than like these capitalist systems little by little

SPEAKER_02: 39:56

yeah yeah absolutely um and that's the whole word around like feeling so like, stretched thin with your time that you're, like, showing up late and things, and, like, yeah, CP time is a thing. I have my own thoughts about, but I, like, for me personally, I will speak, like, I actually don't like the feeling of being rushed and having to go from one place to another or feeling, like, when I'm with people I care about, I can't fully be present because I'm so worried about trying to get to the next thing or other things are on my mind. It doesn't feel like what I, like a life that I want to, like a feeling that I wanna have on a consistent basis. And I'm so excited you brought up SUSU funds. Cause yeah, like my understanding, like, so SUSU funds are like traditionally like, Black folks started that, but a lot of cultures have their own versions of these. Yeah. koreans have like kyeongmae kyeongmai sorry i'm like korean like is it am i saying that right but sorry if i'm butchering it but it was it was like similar um and that was like how uh like korean businesses um and home ownership was able to happen in um california like years back so there's there's different versions of these and i think it's really cool when like we start bringing these back and applying them and like reinventing them to what abundance might mean for us because maybe it doesn't mean like home ownership or it might but like home ownership or like having a business you know with the like having a family with a white picket fence but like creating like a collective house. Like what could it look like for that? So I appreciate that. So I'm going to take us into a little break. And again, y'all, please do not skip over the next 60 seconds. These are dope ass organizations that I support and care about. So please give them a listen and we will meet you after the break.

SPEAKER_00: 42:04

I'm Marquesa Tucker-Harris, Executive Director with the African American Roundtable in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. ArtsVision is a joyful political home for Black people to thrive in liberated and interconnected communities. Our mission at the African American Roundtable is to organize, nurture, and transform Black leaders to build power in service of Black liberation. We get to do such amazing work here in the city of Milwaukee alongside residents. We'd love for you to learn more about our work. Visit us at aartmke.org. all

SPEAKER_02: 42:37

right welcome back so let's get back into more questions it's so funny there's no pause like i'm gonna create the pause but there's no pause in this cover anyway sorry that's back and shit um So we talked a bit about how rethinking wealth can help us strengthen our communities, but what are some ways that finances or other parts of wealth can be used to enact harm in our

SPEAKER_03: 43:06

relationships? Yeah, yeah. I wanna ask you a question, situational question. Has there ever been a time where you've been like stressed about money And then, you know, maybe like an hour later, you have to go meet someone. You've just like opened your accounts and you're like, oh, shit. And then like an hour later, you're supposed to meet someone, but maybe you're not that close. And then that stress kind of bleeds into whatever like lunch you were having. Right. Is that something that's ever happened to you?

SPEAKER_02: 43:44

Yeah, I think so. I think just overall, just having that feeling like, oh my gosh, shit, I'm poor. Where's the food going to come from? Yeah, absolutely. Definitely bled into how I showed up.

SPEAKER_03: 43:57

Totally. I mean, I hope when folks listen to this, they're like, oh yeah, shit, that has happened to me too. But especially in romantic relationships or platonic ones where maybe you live with your roommate who you love very much, Yeah, I mean, this kind of thing just happens over and over and over again, like on a more intimate scale than like someone random you're about to have lunch with, you know? And I think that it snowballs in a way that people like don't even understand how they got there, you know? So for example, sometimes I work with couples where like, it's their first time kind of showing each other like, here's what's going on under the hood or like, you know, here is how much I spend on massages every month, right? And they like, it's almost like that Spider-Man meme where they're pointing at each other like, whoa, like, you know, and... Thanks

SPEAKER_02: 45:03

for bringing Spider-Man into this.

SPEAKER_03: 45:05

Yeah, just like realizing like, oh, wow, like, that's what's going on. But then before that, it was kind of like, okay, there's all this tension. We don't understand why. And it's kind of because folks don't understand how to have those conversations and have that transparency in those relationships, where they can talk about things without like, kind of projecting trauma along with like just the number of like, oh, this is what I spent on. It becomes like, well, you spent this on that. And meanwhile, I'm saving, you know, like it becomes like a really tense thing that happens, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 45:51

Yeah.

UNKNOWN: 45:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 45:52

Just like the feeling like uncomfortable or like resistance to sharing what's happening. Like, as you said, under the hood financially, because it might change, like you think it might change the way, like, you know, your romantic partner or other, like look at you. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. This like, I guess this is before the relationship gets going but honestly I have always been and this is probably off topic but I've always struggled with like how to bring up paying for the meal when you're dating like there's just I know it's tied to like some type of financial trauma there and I'm still trying to work out like I want to be radical about this but like I still just like yeah yeah I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 46:54

If I can, I can respond to that. Cause like,

SPEAKER_02: 46:57

yes, please.

SPEAKER_03: 46:58

You know, this is something I see like, let's say like you meet someone on an app or like you're texting, you're like figuring out the plan. Right. I think like, you know, whoever, whenever the, the coffee shop or the or the restaurant or whatever gets put in the chat I think it's more than okay to ask like hey so this is like I've been here it's probably this much per person like are you cool with that and I think just asking what the price can open up like okay like what do we want to do right like the other

SPEAKER_01: 47:40

person might be like

SPEAKER_03: 47:42

yeah the other person might be like oh well yeah, that's cool. I was, you know, and then if they're nice, they're probably like, I was hoping to buy you dinner. So if they suck, they'd be like, if they suck, they would be like, Oh, why are we talking about this? You know what I mean? But like, and

SPEAKER_02: 48:03

then that's a nice invitation. Yeah. I

SPEAKER_03: 48:06

think just acknowledging like, even like, I'll make a joke too. Like, Oh, this says it's$2 signs on Yelp. Like, are you good with that? Like, Are

SPEAKER_02: 48:16

you a$2 sign person or a$4 sign person?

SPEAKER_03: 48:20

It depends on the date. Yeah. It just depends on the date, right? Because if it's a first date, I'm like, I'm not investing$4 signs. I'm going to find out first in the$2 sign range. Respectfully.

SPEAKER_02: 48:36

Respectfully. Okay, I'll be so honest because I... If it's a cis man I'm going out with, they paying.

SPEAKER_03: 48:45

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 48:46

On our principles alone, you're paying.

SPEAKER_03: 48:50

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 48:50

Anyone else we can have that conversation with. Close

SPEAKER_03: 48:53

the wage cap, babe. Close the wage

SPEAKER_02: 48:55

cap. I know, exactly. Anyway. That's a good point. And I think, yeah, it just invites in the conversation around how folks kind of want to spend their money or like expect for like who pays what to kind of go. And so I like that. I'm going to try that out when I have my next date in like two years.

SPEAKER_03: 49:27

But also, you know, the second that, you know, whoever drops like the restaurant suggestion in the chat, you got to check in with yourself and be like, okay, what do I want to do given that this is where they want to go, right? So yeah, it just, it kind of depends. Like maybe in the moment I'm like, oh yeah, I feel, I don't know, I'm feeling more generous. I really like chatting with this person. Like, cool, I like might want to pick up the tab. Then I would have to check in with myself and be like, okay, here's what it says on Yelp. And, you know, maybe the conversation can stop there depending on what you want to do, right? Maybe you don't got to talk about it because you already kind of know this is what I want to do when I get there. Some other times it's like, oh, I don't know. I'm not sure. Like, I'm not sure about this person or if I'm ever going to see them again, like whatever. So it is more appropriate to bring up like, hey, it's this much like, you know, is that okay with you? And they could say yes or no, or they could just bounce, I don't know, dating these days, you know? And then depending on that, then you could say like, yeah, I was hoping like, you know, we could go Dutch or like, and you know, and if this isn't like, you know... God, it's so weird to be like, if this isn't in your price range or if this isn't where you want to eat, like we can go somewhere else or we could like do a picnic or something that's like more affordable, you know? And then I would kind of close it up with like, yeah, I mean, I don't really care where we go. I just like want to get to know you, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 51:06

Oh, that's sweet. Yeah. I do care where we go. I appreciate it because quite honestly depending on like what you want from you know this like romantic encounter or any like encounter like you might not want to like to be honest with you like if it's a hook up I'd be like I don't really want to drop$200 or maybe I do like let's go bigger go home and like hook up one night and man we have a dope story but for other folks it's like I actually want to keep this like really chill and um but like you know that goes into also like expressing up front what your intentions are and making sure that the other folks like person or people are like consenting into what you're like what you're looking for so i feel i i feel that yeah for sure there's

SPEAKER_03: 52:07

definitely a lot of steps in between like hey, here's the price point. You know what I mean? Like, it would be weird if it's like, we just matched on Tinder. Yo, what's your budget? That would be so weird. You know what I mean? But there's... Be that birth doll. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 52:25

I

SPEAKER_03: 52:25

will be...

SPEAKER_02: 52:26

Anyway, let me not. Let me not. I want to go back to the question around harm because I took... domestic violence training here in Colorado. And one of the things I talked about is partners using finances as a way to control the relationship. So if like only one person has access to the finances and gets to pick and choose how much the other person or other people have in the relationship, how is that a means of like blocking the, like the ability of that person to make decisions if, if they don't want to be in the relationship anymore? And it's something that like, I think some, like I have, had heard about before, but then I got me thinking about like, so like, this is something that I was never raised to like, taught to like, think about when, like, I was raised like the man will provide for you, like, like head of the household type of situation. And it got me thinking about how do we need to be talking about finances before getting in romantic relationships in order to set the tone of like, leaving should always be an option. And I wanna make sure that both of us feel that that is there in case we choose to no longer be in this relationship or if one of us causes a great deal of harm or even a little bit of harm and the other people wanna leave. And so I just wanted to uplift that there are things that folks can be doing, looking at if they have an IRA or something, there are spousal IRAs Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. in control of the finances and making sure that there are safety rails or like safety guards for folks to have like financial agility to leave at some point. I feel like it's just like really important to me now and something that wasn't before. And I think you kind of shared this idea like in a previous conversation around like children in finances, I think that was something that came up, like making sure that folks had, are considering children in the finances. Did you wanna share more about that?

SPEAKER_03: 55:27

Yeah, for sure. I mean, one of the things that, so like there's like a common piece of advice out there Depending on your algorithm. I don't know. Common. But like they'll tell parents like, hey, you can actually put your kid down as an authorized user on your credit card. And then that kind of boosts their credit score down the line because, you know, like they would have credit history and, you know, just proof that they've been like a responsible parent. credit card holder for however many years like it's one of those like hacks that um parents like to use but i've also seen it happen where parents do that and then they spend that money under the kid's name and then it never gets resolved and then the kid like you know um is gets into some deep shit down the line, you know, like, and it's totally, and it's not their fault. Right. And a lot of times too, when that happens, it's like, um, if you call your car to car company and you're like, wait, I'm not the one that made these transactions. Like it was my parent. Right. Um, they'll probably tell you the only way that you can dispute this charge is if you sue them, you know? Um, so this is like, um, kind of in line with some of the financial abuse that you were talking about that happens in interpersonal, like intimate relationships, right? And I want to shout out the work of this organization called Free From. They actually support survivors of gender-based abuse. yeah, to like help them bounce back. And they also have a lot of research of like what it actually takes, you know, for folks to leave these kinds of partnerships. So I would recommend looking into that as well. They have like cash grants for survivors. They help survivors like rebuild financially, especially like in terms of business, you know what I mean? Like starting their own business. So yeah, I mean, um uh financial abuses it's no joke like it's really painful and i think um it's a really high statistic i mean i think i've heard something like 92 of um all like domestic violence uh cases have a financial abuse component to it um and it's also like what makes it hard like really hard for people to leave right

SPEAKER_02: 58:20

yeah absolutely um thank you but in

SPEAKER_03: 58:24

terms of like yeah in terms of like um conversations that folks need to have like to set the tone in the beginning Similar to like the first date convo, there's usually like a bunch of other stuff that needs to be, like the foundation needs to be right before, you know, the finance conversation happens, right? So like, I don't know, like, if there's anything I can recommend, so to speak, for like, folks who, you know, want to avoid that, because it's more of like, a foundational thing, right? But To me, if you're seeing some red flags of... I feel like the main red flag is some hot and cold, like, I'm down to pay for you, and later they resent you for having paid for you when they're the ones that offered, right? Stuff like that, it's a big red flag. Yeah, I think... Oh, honestly, this day and age, I think not tipping is a red flag. Oh

SPEAKER_02: 59:39

my gosh, it's a red flag for just being an asshole.

SPEAKER_03: 59:42

Exactly, right? But anyway, there's a lot of little signs here and there, right? But I feel like the second that you see something like that, I would just say don't, if you can, don't put yourself in a position where you're mixing finances right away. Cause who knows, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:06

Yeah. Yeah. feel that. Yeah, so these people dating, where did this come from? But anyway, so we cannot deny that in the U.S. we are living in an environment with heightened threats to our safety on so many fronts. What are some of the ways we can incorporate financial preparedness into our safety plans? This can be with how we plan to escape or stay in the country, natural or human-made disaster planning or plans we make when someone we are close to harms us.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:44

Yeah. Someone asked me recently, like, is there something you're saying over and over again given, like, that's like a suggestion you're giving to everyone given the times that we live in? And I will say please, my loved ones, have at least thousand dollars in your savings and like prioritize that over paying back any debt okay um ideally a thousand dollars in cash because if you need to like bounce and go somewhere or if the power goes out in you know in town or in the city that you live in and you know folks aren't going to be able to process like credit cards and stuff right like

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:32

we're

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:32

going to need to have something to like buy things with so I would I would start with that for sure and then you know I understand that we're living in a time where the cost of living is so high and there's not always a lot of extra at the end of the pay period, you know, to get us through. And I would just say, saving and planning for disasters, like just, I know there's like a, ah, I gotta do this right now. But like, I would really just encourage like, habits over, you know, the big wins and the big losses type of thing, right? Like, even if it's, like,$5 a month, like, it's something, you know? Like, I really think it's about the consistency and not, like, how much you put in it all at once, you know? So, yeah, even, like, I see people all the time, like, oh, yeah, I... charged hundreds of dollars to my credit card because i was doing some you know shopping for disaster planning and having my go bag ready like cool yeah i understand and also it's time to really like like at the end of the day if you really only have your backpack Do you need them? Can you carry that much stuff? First of all, you know, like let's like, let's really think, think it through versus just, you know, panicking. Right. I'm like, I know I can.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:19

REI. It's going to be terrible.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:25

Sorry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:26

Yeah. But you

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:27

know, I think, um, also like, uh, thinking ahead, I mean, um, I will just mention like by the time that we recorded this, the folks in Gaza have been, you know, in a man-made famine for like five months now and starving. And then, you know, this has been going on since October, 2023. Right. And I think of like the ways that, you know, like the contraptions people are making to filter water. Like, I mean, they, you know, they didn't have to go to REI to like find the thing. Right. So like if you get in the mindset of like, okay, shit is going to go down eventually and I'm really going to need my like ingenuity and like working with what's around, then I think have that energy also when you're putting together the go bag. Right. Like what do I already have in my house that can go in here? Who can I call when I'm missing something? I don't know. Like a, like a piece of rope or a carabiner or something. Come on. There's so many lesbians out there who will have the carabiner that you need. Like you don't have to go buy one. You know what I mean? Like, like as much as it's like the stuff, it's also the mindset that we're going to be in, which is like, make do with what you have and like phone a friend, you know, like who are you going to call when you don't have a thing. Right. So

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:59

yeah.

UNKNOWN: 1:05:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:01

Absolutely. And yeah, this is not to diminish what folks are experiencing in Gaza. It's an absolute genocide. And I think it speaks to the fact that they had to create all these things from rubble about going back to the sense of... leaning into community and what's like already there. And it's simply not enough. It's simply not enough. But when I think about myself and like how I was really scrappy as a poor kid. I was really scrappy because my mom was not buying me all the clothes I wanted. So I'd be painting things and creating the skinny jeans out of bell bottoms from the thrift store because my mom would refuse to buy me skinny jeans. I was very inventive and it cracks me up now how much I don't use my ingenuity I'm just like, I'll go buy it. I'll just go buy it. I was like, you know how to fix this. Just fix it. So I definitely hear what you're saying. Yeah. And I guess to close us out, can you give us a couple of people that you continue to learn from and suggest we check out? Thanks for that drop of freedom from. And then also, where can we find you? What's happening for you? Any events coming up? Maybe they will have already passed by, but she'll still share.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:42

Yeah, yeah. Let's see, who am I? continuing to learn from um oh um there's a poet that i really love his name is ross gay um he actually shares a birthday with my grandma which i think is really special august 1st leo's leo's rise up um

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:09

don't tell all the leos that we've done the whole last thing okay i love you so leo's wit

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:16

um yeah and he um he writes about joy um he has a book of poetry called the catalog of unabashed gratitude um really lovely book um He also has a book where he, like, the Book of Delights, he wrote, like, a little mini essay about delight every day and, like, put it together in a book. And he kind of found, like, the more that you seek it out, the more that you're like, wow, things are delightful, you know? And I think he does a really good job, too, of, like, the purpose of joy is not to, like, spiritually bypass, like, all the awful things that are happening. in our world right now, you know? But that joy and sorrow actually go hand in hand, you know? And they can be experienced together. So yeah, I've been reading a lot of his work lately to keep me on the up, because it's dark times right now. Yeah, it's wild times right now. So... Definitely would recommend him. Yeah, and I continue to learn from the one and only James Baldwin up here. I saw that

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:50

up there. I was like,

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:51

oh, okay. Yeah, this is his biography, which was written by a friend of his who also helped him organize his notes and transcribe stuff and honestly, I think helped him budget. So I'm like, okay, work. Spoiler alert. He was always, you know, I mean, artists, like there's never, there's never enough really support for artists. So yeah. Yeah. And then where to find me? I'm on Instagram at queer and trans wealth. You can also find, check us out on Substack queerandtranswealth.substack.com and yeah on the site queerandtranswealth.org if you're interested in our services

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:51

well thank you so much Leo again for being on the podcast this has been a lovely conversation so thank you Thank you so much for watching this episode. I love you so much. I'm kissing. I'm kissing consensually. If you want that, I will ask you before kissing you. Thank you for listening to this episode of the podcast. I encourage you to meander on down to the description link below to share this episode, tip the guests, and follow all the magical folks that made this podcast possible. Deep gratitude to all of you. Even patting my myself a little bit on the back right now labor of love labor of love later gator and may you walk with the ancestors peace out 22,000 times a day 22,000 times a day 22,000 times a day 22,000 times a day