S2E2 Redefining Masculinity

How can we imagine and embrace masculine energy if we exist outside the body of a CIS man? This is an episode of memory sharing and truth spitting goodness with Trans-Masculinist, writer, and Blackgirlmasculine Founder, Nalo A. K. Zidan. From conversations with God to sharing intentional space with others doing the work of degendering their minds; Nalo and I share a beautiful conversation around our liberational journeys back to ourselves. 

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EPISODE REFERENCES

Reimagining Black Masculine Futures - an IG Live series on healing Black masculinities via  @Blackgirlmasculine

Love and Rage: The Path of Liberation through Anger by Lama Rod Owens

MUSIC BY: Onika of Black Dream Escape

PRODUCED BY: Goddess and Vesta

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:18

[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 0:18

Blessings, fellow weird and wild ones. My name's goddess AKG, AKA your friendly neighborhood, which they them, their pronouns, please. And thank you. Point blank, period. Thank you for joining me in the practice of finding our way back to wholeness. This is our temple, our playgrounds , our life and our truths . During our audio session together, I will be talking with my village on how we are healing, changing paradigms and decolonizing and de gendering. The mind you are not alone, you are enough. Let's plant these divine seeds together. This work is for the collective from me, Brandon, Brenda Kay , and Vesta. And there's a lot of magic that goes on behind the scenes. Find ways to support and it really suppressed. Suffocate all the co-creators on the show at the links Buller, grab your pens and paper, grab your woes and let go.

Speaker 1: 1:34

[inaudible]

Speaker 3: 1:42

Nalo. AKA Zeidan is a queer black writer , organizer and trans masc . Masculinist whose work pushes at the normative boundaries of gender and sexuality and black masculinity experiences. The independent black masculinity's scholar is the founder and creative director of black girl masculine. What, what a nonprofit organization and media space for queer black masculine identified women trans and non binary people that in 2016, the organization serves a global audience with the mission to expand and archive non-normative masculine experiences born in Maryland and raised between New York and DC. Nala is currently completing a degree in women, gender and sexuality studies at Louisiana state university. And as a 2019 TEDx LSU speaker, Natalie has dedicated her life to starting conversations. That shift how we see the world and everyone in it while creating visibility and healing for queer black experiences on the way. Yes. Thank you. How do you feel when people read your bio? I feel like it's a mouth full and I feel like I want to rewrite it every time and every time I do rewrite it it's like that. I'm like, it's, it's

Speaker 4: 3:00

Like that thing where you're balancing like scholarly, academic, academic things, where you're in competition with white spaces. And then you also are like, actually, I'm just like, I love black people. I love gender creative people and we all try to make it. So I created a space where we can come together to map out what that looks like for our freedom. Yeah. I mean, you've done a lot, but yeah, like, like the heart of it and what you , um, what's your intention is, is so simple because it doesn't need to be really said to you, I'm telling you they, yeah, it's supposed to, when you're like trying to get grants and you're up for awards, all these things. So I've probably sent you like the quick short version of that it's even worse when it's longer. So like , I'm going to calm it down a little bit. Next time I gave him a bio to somebody, but thank you so much. Yeah, absolutely. Uh , yeah, it's , it's, it's worth, it's worth telling. Um , but you are more than what is on there. So for sure. I, I feel what you're saying. Um , yeah, absolutely. And again, thank you for doing this , um, this conversation, isn't one that I get to have often with other masculine of center folks. So it's like black folks. So this is like, so , um, so you were actually the first recording of this season, so excuse me if I'm rusty, but we , uh, we're going to go through our pronouns real quick. Um, yeah. And then say the race we , um, we embody and then we'll do a little, check-in no doubt . So my name's goddess and I use they them, their pronouns and I am black body. My name is , is done . Uh, I use all pronouns and I am black may come . Alright . Alright . Now we know it's clear. So the check in for the day is in this moment, where in your body do you feel , um, is expressing your masculinity in this moment? I feel like my masculinity or my masculine energy per se, is manifesting a lot in my torso. Uh, and shoulders, like I've been feeling like more upright and stronger in my back, even with the weight of understanding and being with the weight of , um, not the ache of my ancestors and in have with me constantly and recognize some of their pain as we, as we keep, continue to navigate the stories of our lives, being lost, all those things. So like during this moment in this pandemic time have noticed that even in the ways that I've felt their pain, I've also felt them keep my head high and my , and my back street and my shoulders back and letting me know that I'm loved. Yeah. It sounds like from what you're saying, it's , it's a , it's that strength that we find in masculinity, but also strength that we find , um, and feminine energy as well. Um , definitely not separate for sure. No worries . Um, so I feel it in my hips, I actually, it's interesting. You said that you, you feel very strongly you're back. Cause I threw out my back the other day. Um, but I feel , um , a lot of protection in my hips and like my shoulders , um, and that same feeling of like the ancestors are at my back. Um, but what am I doing to honor their story and honor my own story and allow those spaces to kind of soften. Um, and when I wrote the question for our check in , I actually thought of something and I was like, well, I wonder if we could do this too , of like re looking at those same spots and where we know this masculinity. Cause my work is also in like , um , decolonizing, what it means to be masculine. Like how do I define that feeling also an a in a feminine way or a non-gendered way. So like, can we go back to it? And like you did already. Yeah, absolutely. And I love the ways that, like the body's designed that way too . Like you said, that you'd throw out your back, which is awful. And also that your hips are like, I still got to, you know, it's like, it's such a , there's such a sweetness in the ways that like our bodies are still always trying to find the light, like some flowers in some way. Yes, absolutely feel that . So, so where are you, where are you asking me now? Yeah. Like if you could , um, read a scribe that like that area in your back , um, and those same attributes, but from a way that isn't gender like outside of masculinity. Yeah. And that's a beautiful question. Thanks for asking. I think the, with regards to where I hold certain energies, I think the human construct of his aesthetic and strength and kind of colonization in general has con has attached gender to a lot of these things. But I learned from , uh, the liminal space where I was able to be with ancestors and how they communicate with me through peril and how they show up for me on a daily basis that like gender is the limitation with which we are almost unable to , to see gender energies or just energies in general without attaching into gender. And so as I hold them in my body, I'm the proof, you're the proof. The world takes us up in a particular way. We're a very visually satisfying species. Like everything is based on desirability and all these things. And so as I navigate what that means in my own body , um, I've kind of like allowed these energies to ferment in me to mean , um, what the, whatever the culture of my own life is producing in them. So like I'm supposed to be a particular way based on how the construct of gender , uh, and aesthetic has combined to say, I'm supposed to be in dresses or I'm supposed to be softer. I'm supposed to be whatever. And I'm like, I am. So I'm just also masculine and that, and the balance of the energies and me , um , just like the stars will prove in astrology, just like , uh , our personalities would prove they're things that are stronger in some ways than others, but it ha it's not limited to the bodies that it manifests in. It's not limited to the genders that I have and that all my masculinities are valid in my experience.

Speaker 3: 10:18

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I see , I love the way in which you , um , combine the body with like nature and there's so much language that we use that we, we kind of assume to be gender , um , and it doesn't have to be, and it's that, that feels like the real limitation. And so when I think about the strength that my hips are holding it , like, you know, like they're holding down the foundation while they're parts of me heal that , um, that while that reminds me of like a father or , um, it also reminds me of a mother and it reminds me of elders and it reminds me , um, of the , the ways in which I myself am , um , am learning how to , um, have grace and understanding for the ways in which my body compensates , um , and noticing all of that. So I definitely agree with you. And it's a process, I think , um, as we go through the other questions and have this chat , um, we learned the way like , um , defining masculinity outside of what we deem it to be is such a process and it's going to take our whole life, but in that process, it's so beautiful. Cause there's no map , so you can explore all the terrain.

Speaker 4: 11:47

And I think that's the, and I think Beth, the sweetness, right? Like there's , um , this space I under , I know what I was taught at this man, but also I'm allowed to say, not that doesn't feel like truth to me, you know, I'm allowed to sift through how the world has tried to impress a social understanding of something. And it also, isn't true for my experience. I'm allowed to push back against them , allowed to be free and how it lands with me and how it is true to me in my own experience and how to share that space with other people. And I think that's also why when gender is in the conversation, we do have an issue with , um, how feminine energies manifest in trans women or how masculine energies, you know, manifest in masculine women, non binary people, trans men, all those things. And I feel really deeply connected to this idea that , um, energy isn't gendered is how we're socialized. And the first step for me is always to , to separate it from manhood itself and allow manhood to take on the culture of itself without allowing masculinity to then be toxic overall overarchingly. I'm like, cause I'm asking you feel me and I don't, I don't get the same power. Um, and I don't get the same access to those things. Um, so, so let's talk about how to complicate that, you know, it's a, it's a really beautiful blooming and I'm always thankful to share space and to learn so that I can continue blooming in my own manifestation of it too.

Speaker 3: 13:20

Yes. Always a process. Well, going back to what you were saying about like pushing back against that , um, as a lighter skin , black socialized to be female bodied individual, all those words , um, what is fake patients around boundaries and expressions of emotions were placed upon you , um, at a younger age and what were some of the key moments in which you defied them and push back at them?

Speaker 4: 13:48

That's a great question. I am actually a Pentecostal baby. So it was even more complicated than that. I was raised in Holy ghost by shouting Oregon plan church, black church. And so, you know, I wasn't allowed to be with my masculinity, if anything, my masculinity was the rebellion that continue to keep me curious about who I was, because it didn't fit with what they were telling me, you know, like I'm a young child and I'm like, why, why when they joking around fellow boys, my little boyfriend, I feel no attraction to this , you know , or not even just that, like why, when I'm being put in these skirts or dresses, I don't feel as pretty as I don't feel like I want to hear that. You're pretty, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't some of those ways that we have kind of wrapped up the container of how to be with a girl or how to be with a female body person, it's like, you, you CA you, you kind of get lost in the structure of what you're supposed to be versus who you are. And the thing like for me, masculinity was that space where I had to soften into myself to allow myself to have the balance of all the energies that make me up rather than trying to take it upon myself to be a rigid one version or the other of myself, I always wanted to just be me. And I was like, what does that look like? I remember asking myself before, before I got to that place, I fell on the alter at 12 years old. And I was like, listen, Jesus, you feel me like crying full T his red faced snapped . And I was like, well , listen, Jesus. If I got a demon in my body, that's causing me to like women and to , to, you know, be at that time, tomboyish was the language that I use for myself because that's what everyone saw in me as well. I'm like, if this ain't supposed to be here, I'm asking you to take it out and trust you. I'm surrendering. I left there and remembered seeing the most beautiful child that was in church that Sunday , um , that I'd ever seen. And I was still drawn to her in some desirability way. And she was also, I think she was 13, she was 12 or 13. And after that moment, I began to ask a lot of questions about whether or not my emotion, the ways that I processed emotion, the ways that I understood my being my body, all that, if it was real, you know, it's like , um, I began to imagine who I actually was rather than living it because I wasn't allowed to. And so I think pushing back against the emotions that were in conversation with that pretending or the manipulation of myself, to be able to be socially accepted by my church or whatever, I'm like suppression also wouldn't have saved me from hell. Cause I still felt that things I felt and knew myself to be the personnel was. So after I broke out of that and kind of, you know, started the repair of everything that I felt I'd lost it from indoctrination. It allowed me to bloom into asking the questions necessary, to separate myself from the culture of masculinity to build or create with community what accountable masculinity's can look like, what it means to actually submit to who we are without , um , having this category that belonged to men. And I was then in imposter, impersonator in names . So it's definitely been a journey that I've had to kind of be with the nuances of my particular masculinity . So I wasn't following men and trying to learn from, you know, how they speak to women or how they dress or how they do whatever. It's like, I can do it my way. I have this organic masculine energy in me just as much as we assume is in our sons when they're born. And so it's been, it's been a time navigating all that. Yes. I'm like picture a young Nalo cherish , like just like tears running down your face and like that moment. Yeah. That moment of, especially at a young age, because that moment of completely like letting go of the tethers that we think define us and just laying it all out and being like, where is me in this? What is my truth? Um, and then to start, like to start with the process of like picking up the pieces that you feel really do resonate with you. And also God , I'm like, I'm like you, if you knew percent , um , and like you , if you're everywhere, all powerful, all knowing I need you to like, how did you like, where's your accountability?

Speaker 5: 18:52

[inaudible]

Speaker 4: 18:52

I don't really say I didn't have to come out outwardly say I'm gay, I'm queer. I'm whatever. I didn't even know the language for. Cause I was like a machinist child who was also, they had attempted to show to me in a lot of ways. And so when I think about it, I'm like I had no connection to who I actually was because I was still in this space of acting toward what was satisfied , the people that I cared about. And it that's what made it so hard. It's like, I'm at , I wanted to know from God. I'm like, if you, if being a mission omnipotent and I'm there percent means anything to you, then you knew who I'd become or what I was struggling with as a child. Is it that humans got it wrong? Or did God let me down? And that was a huge struggle for me, for sure. What was the struggle and for you with that piece? Cause I think there's a lot there. You said what happened for me? It kind of glitched a little bit. Oh yeah. It's on my end too. I'm hoping we'll be okay. Um , what was the struggle for you with that piece of like, did God let me down or was it like, you know, something within me? Yeah, I think, I think it was that day. You know, when I, when I lay face down on the alter and after service and ask God, like, if it's a demon, you know, and if these stories are true, even though I've been praying, even if my family didn't go to church, our God , my little preteen self on the bus and rode cross town, four buses to get from one side of DC to the other, just to get there, you know, and to be , um , in right relationship with God and to be with the text and to , um, to show God that I was a loyal servant, all these things. And then for , for them moment to come up for me and for it not to be changed, I was struggling with whether like the moment after that prayer or laying on the author of worshiping, if that was the moment where God was affirming, that I was okay because I, because I felt that connection to the girl right after, or if I was just a center. And the thing that kind of cleared that up for me was over time when I realized that my connection to spirituality, to God, into , um , the very liminal space of, between this body and eternal life for , um , other universes was the fact that if I was that low on the scale of where God would be pleased, then I wouldn't be as blessed as I am. You know what I'm saying? Or I wouldn't have access to , um , the joy that I feel like I'm like the way that I understood the Bible was to limit the blessings of those who came against sky per se. And that was just something I really struggled with. And then I'm like, I've been calling God. He pronouns all the time. He telling me that you feel me like he, or any of the ways that it was construct God was constructed for me. I had questions about, and I'm like, who said , if I made an image of God, then God is queer and God is all identities and God is not gender by he and all these other things. I'm like, let's talk about what the image of God is based on the vastness of what we know humans to me, I'm like humans are the ones limiting what God power or spirit power looks like. So it was a journey . Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 22:33

Yes . Coming back to that, divine this , um , like , so , so we're both reading love and rage by Lama Rago . And , um, and in it, he talks about , um, how like black folks have been like disconnected from our bodies because of racial trauma. And that goes racial trauma as gender trauma is all, all the things. So , um, but it makes us feel unsafe to occupy ourselves and also to trust ourselves and trust what we are feeling and that it is not a sin and that we are not bad people. So I'm curious, like after that happened, after that moment in church , um, and then seeing that , that, that beautiful young woman, like who in your life reflected continuously reflected back to you , um, that is , was okay and safe to occupy yourself and like, or did you have to continuously just fill up your own cup?

Speaker 4: 23:41

Yeah, yeah, it absolutely is. And you know, I did have to make the decision. It was like, you know, church also offers this very powerful component that keeps us coming back is the fellowship, is the food, it's the culture is the family. And all that wrapped up into , uh , you know, the gift of what church with the black church I'll say specifically was for me, I had to be willing to give all that shit up. Excuse my language. I'm like I had to be willing. I had to be willing to give that up because, and that was the hardest part. It's like, are you going to choose you or the experience of this performance, do they really love you? Or do they love the idea of you being obedient to God? And the ways they know is true. And that is, that's what messed me up. I was like, actually, I only get this one life on this earth. I'm not harming nobody because I'm trying to figure out who I love and who I am and how to love me, how to be in right relationship with myself. If that means compromising my relationship with you guess who I play I'm out of here. And that was, that was important for me to recognize that I needed to be able to say that I love myself enough to continue fighting for my relationship with myself fighting to be in right relationship with myself. Like what did that mean to me? Um, and that's kind of where I pivoted and wanted to fight for myself outside of indoctrination and how , um, how that was the limitation that I couldn't really fight through is your , um, I want to ask you , I don't know if this can be added up the recording, but is your screen still freezing and stuff too? Yeah, it is. I was actually gonna see if we could take off our video and that'll help with the, so I'm going to tell everybody in my house to get off the welfare too . Cause that's my internet connection. They be playing me sometimes. I'm like, why am I paying for this? So it could be me on my aunt too . Who knows. Let's see, it's all good. We're going to do what we gotta do to make sure. Um, so you said turn video off. Yeah. Let's see if that'll help with okay . Anything, but if like, if our voices aren't going to hear you the whole time, like you didn't in this audio, it just is . So it might not even matter unless you're doing a video clip of this. No, I'm not. It just helps with like in conversation, but like, this is totally fine. So yeah. Perfect. Perfect. Sounds good. Um, Oh , that was , she was like, okay . Yeah, I was talking about, I was talking

Speaker 3: 26:44

About releasing from indoctrination to be in right relationship with myself at the expense of the relationships I had with blood family, with the people that were only satisfied with me when I was doing what they wanted me to do for my life. Right. Um, and that, that hits home so much because I was actually raised a Jehovah's witness. So similar ideas around , um , expectations and like this constant shaming of who you are and having to repress repress or press in order to be deemed valuable , um, and deemed like worthy of love. Um , yeah. And so it's one thing that I noticed about like every time I refused to, to believe what was being told to me , um, there was always a pushback and a sadness coming from the people that helped raise me. And that was harder for me. I mean, like, it was hard for me , um, to come to terms with what, how, how would I thought was God at the time, like was viewing my , my life, but to have like my family, like my family, like my mother , um, struggle with me being fully who I am that felt like that's my first God is my mom. Right. So, so learning how to take in and , um, and get , um, taking the information of people who think they know you because you know that they've raised you , um, they've been around you , um, and allowing them the space to kind of come to terms with that, whether they don't or do was never a part of like, Oh , how I define myself. Right. And so, yeah. So, so coming, coming to terms with that, but then I'm like losing my thought. I'm like, come back to it, guys, come back to it. I understand. Yeah. But uh, having learning that it is okay to be wrong , um, and that there might not be this whole black and white and I've nipple , stunt and perfection that we've been told is there. And then when that shattered for me, that idea that like, if you're not this way, then you can't be any way at all. I'm completely just dismantle if like, and like less me wide open to explore everything. Um, and that's what that was all . Yeah.

Speaker 4: 30:00

Yeah. It was the same for me because, because think about when I think about it, I'm like, what is this obsession we have with right wrong binaries, whether it be religion or the value of a human life or whether or not black people deserve to be treated a particular way, whatever it is, there's always a yes, no right wrong binary that always comes up. Whether you should be queer or not. Like when the questions themselves shouldn't even be asked, it's like, how can I be in right relationship with the people who manifest that there are more possibilities than those that I've been taught? It's like, you have no, you have no more proof than I do. Like what kind of God is there? You know, what you've been taught and believe, you know, based on those principles and practices. But do we, do we allow ourselves to make room, to be in community with those who are different than us. And I feel like amongst like black communities, especially the black church, there is an amount of, there is so much of a cultural rest in trust in that because of where we've come from it and how much we've struggled. Um, and I think that space , uh , creates like this kind of safe Haven for us in that safe Haven. We don't allow ourselves to think outside of it. Cause we're like, if I would move outside of this, then I'm not protected, then anything can happen to me. And I'm like, I understand, you know, I empathize with that. And also I won't be limited to it, you know? And I won't be limited by it moving forward in my life. I want to know what being in right relationship with spirit is. I want to know how powerful I am. I want to know that like , um, I don't have to like everything that I've been told, I can also question or be curious about and that it's not a , I'm not, it's not some, my life is not some period of time where someone is like looking at me, waiting for me to do what is pleasing to them. Like I want to be able to know that I think about it in the ways to look at this whole world. If I cut my finger, it , it attempts to heal itself, no matter how bad it is, like our bodies are created that way. We, the food we eat is mostly, you know , uh, processed and whatever else our bodies are working double time. We don't have to set an alarm clock for our lungs and our heart to be, you know, in our lungs to expand and take our next breath who created the mountains. There are vast bodies of water that take chemical imbalances. Everything grows on earth, comes from dust storms that spread seeds throughout the world. It's like, y'all know , can tell me that the lemons , Haitians , like , you know what I'm saying? I'm like, they're possibilities that we can't be in touch with because we limit ourselves. And I'm like the divine masculine and everything that is embodied in the power that we need, that we reflect on in our own lives, speaks to the evolution in potential for new possibilities. But not if we stay in the spaces that feel comfortable to us, you know, we have to stay curious no matter what.

Speaker 3: 33:18

Absolutely. And when you, when you were talking about like staying in communities, because it feels safe, that is so rooted in trauma. That's like, so that's like the mentality that we have is like, I want to feel connection. I want to feel a part of something. And there's all these things outside of this community that was built for me. They said it was built for me. They, you know, these people look like me. Like there's so many things outside of that community that will literally kill me, that I need to stay within this community to, to survive. Um, and that's so rooted in our historical trauma. And so to, to do what you are doing to do what so many people are doing, starting to be curious and starting to look at the ways in which that community has nuances and we need to start celebrating those nuances. Um, yes , it's a part. Yeah. Is a part of that. Magic is a part of the process of healing. It's so healing and it's, and we are nature, as you were talking about with seeds were meant to spread and grow. Um, and all of that is our process. Oh yes. Like,

Speaker 4: 34:37

So it's so beautiful. Whoa . Especially cause I'm obsessed with, I'm obsessed with like mycelium networks and mushrooms. And like, just thinking about the fact that nothing would be 11 earth without them is, is, is crazy to me. It's just like, you know, like even that the fact that I , I learned about these, these proteins that grow in plants that are forced to grow out of season because capitalism and food production has become a major market, especially like in the United States, but also around the world. And when a plant is planted and harvested outside of its season, as a defense mechanism, it literally grows with toxins in it that can destroy your , your digestive system over time. I'm like all these things, like all the languages of everything that is alive on earth, we need to be in right relationship with. And that's some of the ways that I was able to separate myself from indoctrination because the world proved to me, there was more to believe in and more to be in right relationship to than some male God in this guy. Like I , I'm a believer in so many ways. And I practice gratitude in ways that don't force me to gender God or to, or to , uh, place limitations on how I'm supposed to perform my life in proximity to God. It means constant, very relationship with humans and every other living thing here, it means not taking more resources than you need. It means learning how to share space with one another. So those are the ways that my worship and my gratitude are expressed in any of my work. So I hope and pray that all of us get there too . It's definitely not an easy journey. It's easy to be gritty out here. Oh, wow.

Speaker 3: 36:23

Absolutely. Absolutely. There is , um, uh , generative energy in your practice and in the ways in which you express your masculinity and outside of them ,

Speaker 4: 36:40

Masculinity , um, that's, that's truly beautiful. Um, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate this goddess . I really do. I do. There's this sweet, there's a sweet energy here. That space for all that, all that blacks .

Speaker 3: 37:02

Um, so B because , um, you have gone through all of this emergence , um, and continue to do so. What is , how does

Speaker 4: 37:17

Community reflect this back to you now? Um , like what, well , how

Speaker 3: 37:23

So does your community kind of like hold space for all of the submergence? How do they practice

Speaker 4: 37:32

With you? You know, I'll be honest, it's, it's a, it's a give and take and a push pull, you know, oftentimes and beyond, like, and I'll give an example. Um, I've recently been, you know, I'm someone that because of the way that I was raised and what I've had to do to survive indoctrination and to get out of it. And then what that has meant to kind of raise myself and to be part of communities that actually, and then start to like build trust building practices that allowed me to be , um , in community space with other people, allow myself to be loved, to be taken care of, to get access to resources. Um, I think one of the biggest ways that community is in relationship with me now is like this same rebellion I had as a child navigating. This is the same rebellion, probably times 10, that I have now as a curious black masculine person. And , um, as I navigate community space, I do notice, you know, the , the ways that they fall short or that I , um, you know, my masculinity might sometimes show up as defensive or learning in public is sometimes hard or whatever those things are. And as a w I live my life to be present with what it means to be a human being. You know what I'm saying? So I'm not trying to be this, this shiny model of a human, I'm not trying to be this perfect rendition. I want you to know that I struggle. I fuck up sometimes. You know what I'm saying? I have ways that I have yet to unlearn about my masculinity's due to the dominant culture of what masculinity has, how masculinity is being shown to me and what that culture has been. But I know that I'm willing to be active in the work of undoing and re-imagining black masculinities . You know what I'm saying? So that's, that's been the biggest thing. Like there are so many people in my community that are still trapped in, like, there's a realization of who they are, but they also are still struggling with like completely being outside of indoctrination or, you know, the Bible and all these other things. There are people who, you know, feel like they gotta be a particular way with women because we have yet to, you know, in any massive, radical way, detached manhood from masculinity , um, and held manhood accountable as a culture versus masculinity as a whole. Um, and because I think of masculinity as an energy that does present itself as a set of tools and resources that can be abused as power. And as I reflect on that and navigate that, I understand myself to be someone who wants to be an example of what re-imagining can look like. Um, and so I hold space. I try to, you know, I try to be there when community needs me and it just, you know, having the conversations that push back against what we think we know I'm like, I want us to constantly be okay with normalizing conflict, with what we've grown comfortable in, because there's still more, you know what I'm saying? Um, and, and that has been a big thing for me. So with community I've just , uh, tried to, I've tried to hold spaces that invite complexity rather than , um, even the activism's we've learned or the limitations in movement work or whatever. It's like in the fight for black lives. We still have not gotten to a place where we allowed all black lives to matter . We got some people that are okay with trans lives. Some people that are like these women are women, some people that are like, you know what I'm saying? You're not black enough or whatever the case is. And so all of these nuance conversations though important, still needs to be met with the complexity that , um, we, we also have , uh , a means for what it could look like to be powerful and community outside of the white gaze . So that's how I try to reflect on all of that. That's odd . Try to reflect on all of it. Cause men is it also complex, but I feel like we can do it. You know, I feel like the most brilliant people in the world of people of color black people. And I'm like, if anybody can get this shit right, it's us, you know what I'm saying? It might not mean that we all become millionaires because whiteness is created for white people. And we understand that very much, but what does it mean to be in right relationship with one another, as black people, if all black lives matter, does it just mean the black lives you think are good or do we have room to also provide resources to people who haven't been so good or whatever in the construct of what that means? So I just, I really just want to , I just try to keep extending community and staying elastic so that I can expand and grow as I do with community.

Speaker 3: 42:30

Yes. Um, when you were talking about the different , um, like when people get defensive over like, Oh, you're not black enough. Oh no . Like we need to put like black men first, whatever it may be. There's so much defensiveness there and that yes. Um, and, and , and there's a way to pack it in which we don't have to be defensive. Like the defensiveness feels very rooted in whiteness. Um, and it feels like a tool that like white men have used for so long to not, to not truly face themselves. And so we use that tool as well, and it's such a disassociation of our true selves , um, for what's actually happening. We are built, like we build these, these walls of defense , um, and , um, behaviors that express anger that push us away from what's actually happening in the moment. Um, and, and that's what I do .

Speaker 4: 43:40

Yeah. And it's either going to be reductionist or expansive. It's like, those are the only, like the direct issues are going to go in every direction, or it's going to reduce someone to a particular thing. You know what I'm saying? Like we were having a conversation. And I think, I think because , uh, you know, because I'm a light skinned person and your rich skin person, you know, I'll bring this up, but like we were having a conversation on colorism and , uh, we were talking about light skin privilege. And one of the things that came up was the fact that light skin and like beauty standards are, are definitely not mutually exclusive because you have to factor in some of the other , um, benefits that aesthetic privilege affords people. So I thought about, you know , uh, albino people, disabled people, fat people , um , uh, people who are , uh, just anyone that doesn't fit into the desirability politics. Whiteness has impressed upon us in media or anything else. And so , um, you know, able bodied people, all these things. And I'm like when we consider those, those nuance spaces, someone who is not light skinned , conventionally attractive, you know, skinny or whatever, as I am, I have to hold space differently than someone who is, you know, albino and , and struggling with , uh, a cognitive ability or whatever other things. And I'm like, so when we talk about light skin, we need to also have the complexity of understand that light skin is not where the PR the privileges aesthetics and light-skinned together are where we need to have the conversation. Because on the spectrum of , uh , of colorism, in order to send to those who have been harmed the most by colorism, it takes us understanding that those nuances are Y you know, it's like the desirability politics whiteness has created is why rich skin people are not desirable. The ways that we have , uh , made skinny people uplifted is why fat people are not desirable. You know what I'm saying? So I want us to complicate the conversations around that. And a lot of times, because of the rebellion that I have against just these umbrella structures of activism that don't complicate conversations enough to speak to , um, people who have been in these varying situations, you know, there's like, it's , it's, it's hard. But as a people, I feel like it to reimagine into imagine what black futures can look like. We need to be able to not always see ourselves the way white people see us. I'm like, we're going to do with one another white people. Don't get to say, who's beautiful in this space. You know what I'm saying? We can talk about media and all of that . And we can, we can talk about the tailored conversations for each of these things, instead of just impressing upon people that rich and people are not beautiful. So they need to be uplifted. I'm like, are you saying that? Or are you just using, like, are you only seeing the world in proximity to how white people see the world? I'm like, all of our media needs to have risk and black people, you feel me, I'm like, do we create that for ourselves? Instead of waiting for white people, didn't do it. So is this it's such a complicated, but those are some of the ways that when I'm in community, I do refer a lot of feathers. Cause we, we want to, you know, I want us to be able to push past how white people have translated our humanity back to us in ways that are damaging. You know what I'm saying? And , uh , one , I want to see us be able to be in my relationship with one another , um, beyond white gazes. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 47:23

And, and that being in that place of like having a conversation , um, with people that we may or may not know , um, might be close to and standing our ground is something that I've, I'm learning to practice, but all the ways in which I , yeah. And all the ways in which I've seen it practice where from this very like toxic like guard , like I was talking about that defensive toxic way . So like when I feel power hungry . Yes. And so when I feel that that , that tightness and that constriction that comes from being hurt and wanting to protect myself, there's a certain stance. I get like both feet on the ground leaning in like Knuck, if you buck kind of thing, you know, but then you have to cut the neck , come back into myself. Like after I have created like a wall, I'm able to come back into myself and say, how am I actually feeling about this and why is it hurting me? And how do I engage now from knowing that place that a boundary has been caught cross within my safety, where I can gauge this , say know something about this is fucked up and how do we reevaluate this and how do we start to dissect it and pull at it at the ways in which there is so much repair that needs to be done here. Okay .

Speaker 4: 48:44

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's, that's a huge part of it. Like there is so much repair to be done. And , and like, when we think about , um, you know, repairing, I think about community based work, cause in ultimately I think about the ways that white people have destroyed so much of even what we've tried to build amongst ourselves. So I think about black wall street, I think about Tulsa, I think about , um, all these different moments in history and , and the trauma that's like in our bones, in our backs, in our hips, you know, like we were talking about those energies, I kind of like, I try to center and find where some of these trauma energies are so that I can be in relationship with it rather than, you know, taking the ibuprofen, just so that I don't feel that it's there. I want to know how to show, you know what I'm saying? And obviously those things are hard because we deserve to feel good at any given moment. And sometimes we don't have the capacity to go through what the pain is like. But I , I, I think about the center of us as a people , um , and really wanting us to, I wish I'll say my hopeful thinking is that I wish we weren't so tired and exhausted with the world that we'd have the effort to , to learn what it means to be in community. To know that none of us are disposable and that we all should be against investing black bodies in prison, industrial complexes , and that we need to be in right relationship with each other and who has privileged in our communities. And how do we get access to these spaces to bring people who are non-visible . Um, you know what I'm saying? Like, let's talk about how to be in right relationship with privilege and those who are not seen , like, I want us to think about it in more expansive ways than you owe me. And so you need to be at the back, you know what I'm saying? I'm like, Hm , we , we less, less complicate the ways whiteness wants us to be up against one another in rigid ways. Like, I want to soften for you. Like, how can I be in right relationship and share space? That feels like a brave space, not even a safe space, because we don't have access to that as a people, there is no safe space per se, but there are spaces we create that are brave enough to have conversations that we need to be having so that we can soften into trust building with one another so that our communities can talk about community accountability and transformative justice and restorative justice, rather than throw them in prison or I'm gonna kill him because they did a particular thing to me. I was like, wait , what does it look like to create our own version of life, you know, in community. So it's hard, but I just can't help. But believe that it's possible. Yeah. I am right there with you. I know it's possible just in the work that is now being done and the spaces in which we're currently in. Like, I could never have dreamed of this as a little little thing. Um, when you said, I wish we weren't so tired. Do you feel that rests needs to come before the work specifically for black people? Do you feel like rusty has to come first? Um, you know, I feel like that's, I feel like it's a community breakdown as well that we don't have rest because we haven't been able to do the work to get together. So I feel like it's , uh , it's both ends like in order to get rest, we have to be in community with one another so that when you need to step down, I got your back. You know what I'm saying? When, when you need to sleep and you got two babies, I need to be able to say, I'll take them for the day. So you can do what you need to do for yourself. Or black owned businesses is coming to the neighborhood, their local neighborhoods, and be like, who needs a job? You know what I'm saying? All of these different ways that I feel like we like, even though we are tired and, and our exhaustion looks different ways, it's like, I feel like I want us to wrap our minds around the sacrifices and the exhaustion. That was even crazy amount. Like it was insurmountable compared to what our ancestors have been through. You know what I'm saying from those who are zoos to those who are enslaved to any of it. And I almost hate this kind of entitlement that comes along with , um , you know, movement work today that, that doesn't leave room for people to fall short or to need help or to not always have the politically correct language or whatever those things are. And I'm like, but the greater picture is right relationship. You know what I'm saying? Right. Relationship is more important than somebody who's slipped up in misuse your pronouns in it like unintentionally or whatever. Some like right. Relationship is more important. And it's , it's hard because when we're hurt, those things are so much more of a gut punch. You already got all this hurt that we're managing and all this hurt that we're carrying from generations. And then the tiny things just make us, you know, are a blow to our gut. And it's like, we don't have a way, you know, there's no map, well how to do this. So that's why we need community in order for rest to happen. We do have to start the hard conversations in order for us to happen. We do have to learn what right relationship looks like. And in order to be in right relationship, we do need to know what it means to, to live a life instead of just surviving. You know what I'm saying? We need each other to do that.

Speaker 3: 54:34

Absolutely. And I don't think that rest is synonymous with like checking out or this place of , um , no action . Like rest is, especially for black and indigenous people is work learning what rest actually means and not having shame around it is something that we are continuously reminding ourselves to do. Um, and, and rest can look like so many different things. Like when I think of my rest now my rest looks like learning how to practice boundaries with white people, because I need bread from white people. Yes . And that that's , that's a practice in itself. That's toilsome work. So yes, you are in a place of rest, feels like a place of like breath, like fully being in the breath and being present so that you can , um, come in whole wholehearted, whole, whole bodied. Um, like you were saying to have those hard conversations. Like I imagine , um , like a group of all my black loved ones, like laying down and like this almost cuddle puddle kind of thing, but not like creepy,

Speaker 4: 55:51

Just so good

Speaker 3: 55:52

Together. And, and like allowing what we need to say to come up. And because we are in a place where we feel secure and brave, we can, we can hold that space together. That feels like a whole bunch of work. And all that feels like delicious work, restorative work.

Speaker 4: 56:14

If we can do it together as if we can get together, it is that delicious work, you know? And I call that breathing into each other. It's like, I will take, I'll take your exhale and you take mine. Like we breathe into one another because that like the sweetness and that next breath is the reminder that we're both alive. Like, let's figure this shit out. It takes all of our minds. It takes all of our experiences. It takes the nuance. I ain't telling my struggle Olympics, well , I actually, this are you actually that, you know what I'm saying? We could do that forever. If you want to talk about experience because black people done been through some shit, but I want to know how we met by relationship without also considering any of us disposable, you know, and that's going to take generations, probably. I don't , I'm not even sure if humans as a species will be here by that time, you know, they report some alien sightings. I'm like, come pick me up. Uber, come get me

Speaker 5: 57:26

[inaudible] .

Speaker 4: 57:26

But I , I, I value community so much because I know how powerful black people are. I know it because the black cookout powerful. I know it because the black fan reunion powerful, the black church though indoctrinating and all these things is also powerful. It's limited because of the ways that , uh , you know, God has been given to us or shown to us through Christianity and the umbrella of that. But the comradery, the fellowship that coming together in spiritual worship together, that energy in one building come through, like the music, you couldn't pull me on gospel music. If you tried, you know what I'm saying ? They be saying so wild stuff. Sometimes Brenda Clark Cole, okay. You don't have a good time. I think of all these spaces where black people are in community and I'm like, what are those possibilities? And how do we sustain them so that it only strengthened so that there's no breakdown. I'm like, well, Conda is real. That was somebodies imagination. But that can be a real understanding of how we fortify one another. You know what I'm saying? Showing up with our strengths, our privileges and resources to get access and present new ways to bring in community. That's so important to me. I'm going to get you off track too. Cause I know we got way off track with like almost everything, but I think everything we've spoken to has been what the conversation should have been about. We are where we need to be. So I love that. I deeply appreciate that. I'm grateful. I do any questions you want to throw in there, feel free. Um , I'm still taking in which , what , what you were just talking about. Cause I'm taking it back to , uh , what's the movie , uh , is it beloved? No , it's not beloved. Why am I think the color purple? I'm pretty sure it was . Yeah. And like how she brought everyone together in the woods to laugh and cry and dance. And all of that came through us, like all this , this gospel music that all came through us and yes, it was it's put into Christianity, it's put into all those things, but it came through us. So that saying something is always within us. We created what we have always been given. Like these tools that feel not meant for us in work, usually not meant for us. And we're meant to stifle us and we have made such fucking treasures. Yes, absolutely. Yes . And in that power, that gospel, even gospel music in that power that is harvested. When we start, it's like a releasing of our pain, like an, almost like it's a conjuring, you know, every hallelujah, every thank you. Every like gratitude and praise, every dance. It is a conjuring of spiritual energy that is sustaining and filling us into overflow. And it's like, we go out into the world and are depleted. But guess what? When you come back, everybody, you have went to the club Saturday night and you showed up Sunday morning. You still just needed to let something out. You needed to, you know what I'm saying? You needed to let something fill you again because it is hard to be in the world and be black. It is hard to be in the world and be queer and non-normative and all these things. And the church is like, this is a place you can come. And I , and I always say that I, if I ever, you know what I'm saying, wanting to share space in a church, it wouldn't be because I wanted to join it as some member or, you know , go through some particular practice. I might not even stay for the sermon, but that prison worship is just something that's just in me.

Speaker 5: 1:01:22

Yeah ,

Speaker 4: 1:01:28

Yeah .

Speaker 5: 1:01:32

Right. All the potty

Speaker 4: 1:01:37

To get out this bowl. I love to have like a church thing . Like without all that, like that would be amazing. No . Oh my goodness. Yes. Yes. A friend of mine has been doing a thing , uh , called pandemic joy and it's like invite only, but we come together as family and release things and sing songs. And like, you know, hear from someone in who has like a message from the universe or a spiritual message that we need for the week. But it's not pulling from the Bible is not pulling from some patriarchal understanding of the world is like, it's like today, our spirits are exhausted. Every person in the room go through and release, which you need, you know, and we'll give them room to talk about their feelings and traumas and all those things. It's just like such a powerful space. And I wish we had more spaces like it,

Speaker 3: 1:02:41

Get your joy, get your joy. It's beautiful. How that joy is not just what we deem as like happiness, but it's the deliciousness of it

Speaker 4: 1:02:51

Being seen and being heard and being able to

Speaker 3: 1:02:54

Cry or laugh. All of that. It seems as held within that space.

Speaker 4: 1:03:00

Yes, that's right . Love it.

Speaker 3: 1:03:05

I do want to , um, come to one last question before we kind of get into Yazzie and blackout masculine of being assertive , um, and how you have , um, started practicing assertiveness outside of , um, the behaviors of toxic masculinity, because that's what I'm learning now is like, how do I find my assertiveness and not , um, not, you know,

Speaker 4: 1:03:43

Reproduce the ways in which

Speaker 3: 1:03:45

I've seen, you know, my dad or like other men do in it.

Speaker 4: 1:03:49

I mean , yeah . How have you , yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:03:51

And how have you been learning and how have you made space for yourself to kind of like you were saying, like, I fuck up.

Speaker 4: 1:03:57

How have you made space for yourself to publicly talk about the , well, when I think my upbringing itself , like when you feel trapped for so long, you're not going to let nothing or nobody, you know, limit you any longer. And that's where I've found myself. My curiosity is peaked beyond even the space that we're introducing a lot of the world through to , um, to through activism. And you know, that's not, you know, and even this, like, even when I talk about myself in a particular way, you know, there are ways that socially things will be perceived. You know, you could be seen as arrogant for saying that or veins because you think you're beautiful or whatever other things. So I had to stop caring at the extent that I was caring . I'll say , uh, what people thought of me? You know what I'm saying? I'm like, am I going to continue to reduce myself to the standards I've been conditioned to believe are socially acceptable? Or am I going to continue to actively learn what being in right relationship with myself and community is or means? Um, and also, you know, I , I'm very honest and upfront about who I am. You know, I tell people all the time, I'm not a nice person. I'm kind, but I'm not nice. I believe kindness is regard for people's humanity and niceness is mostly what white people do, which is the performance of kindness, but they'll go vote against you and vote for Trump tomorrow. You know what I'm saying? But they'll stand in your face and be like, hi, how are you? You know , I ain't with all that. I'm not nice. Okay . So please go somewhere with that. I don't want the false pretenses of higher socially . It's supposed to interact with anyone because I want to , I want you to treat me how you would treat me behind closed doors when nobody's looking. And that's such a hard thing because the world is not that honest. And when I think about being aggressive or assertive and all those kinds of things , um , like I said, masculine energy for me , um, does a lot, a particular set of tools and resources. And I don't believe assertiveness or even aggressing aggression is, are like bad characteristics or , um, or , um, you know, even, I don't think that they're terrible things to have, but I think that when you take more than you need or use more than you need to in any given moment disregarding people's humanity, abusing that space for power, all those things. That's when it becomes , uh, you know, that toxicity and that toxic culture. And because masculinity has been attached to men, you know, the idea that men and that's, that's how we're conditioned to it's like masculinity is attached to men, but we're not holding men accountable. We're holding masculinity accountable. And that means everybody else that is also masculine. You know what I'm saying? So when I think about it, I'm like, can we be with the space of , um, how to be other things other than happy and sweet all the time. Unlike everybody, everybody does not know how to be that love and light ass n***a all the time, you know? So we feel other things. Yes. And when we feel other things it's like, where are the limits that , that show us what people are satisfied with about us. I'm like, what parts of me are you satisfied with versus the parts of me that you don't want to know or be around? Like, I'm not going to perform for you if I'm not doing well, you'll know I'm not doing well and vice versa. So when I think about things like assertiveness and things like that, I'm like, that's how you're powerful. People do want you to be small, you know, especially lesser than them. Most of the time, that's, that's how we, you know, pull on each other. It's like a more valuable than you in some way, because we've ranked, you know, who is valuable and who isn't based on that , that social conditioning of, you know, being top tier whiteness, being most white people, being most beautiful, all of that. And I'm like, when do we get to construct the world through our gaze ? What does our gaze look like? And so when I think of being powerful through masculine energy or being assertive, things like that , um, I think it needs to be accompanied by the complexity that we are also tender and soft in so much else. And that our power is not like, it's what you do with the power of assertiveness that matters. You know what I'm saying? Like if you have I harmed you or are you , um , not prepared for how powerful I am? You know, like those are valuable questions that I think also have been abused. So a lot of times we don't get to talk about them, you know what I'm saying? Um, and I think men have done a lot of that damage for sure. And that accountability needs to look like the people who do, who are in power or who have held power in a particular way. Um, you know, showing up in that accountability in the ways that they manifest their, their masculinity, their , you know, the power that they could so easily yield. And I want us to be able to understand the difference between , um , someone, you know , being powerful in a particular moment and abusive power. So yeah. Yes .

Speaker 3: 1:09:40

And there's now there's so much vulnerability and accountability in assertiveness. Like yeah, you are letting people know, you've kind of started impinging on a boundary. I have, let me restate that boundary so that you can no longer cross it. So you are letting people know you have been, you know, you feel some type of way.

Speaker 4: 1:10:06

There's nothing wrong with that at all.

Speaker 3: 1:10:09

Yeah. At all. And I, and as black people,

Speaker 4: 1:10:12

When we start to ,

Speaker 3: 1:10:16

Um, you know, worked that muscle and that tool that is naturally within us, like anyone else it's seen as a threat , um, it seen as overstep, like crossing out , like we're not, we're not staying in our place. Um, and then we are deemed a danger again, simply for, yeah . Simply first, you know, creating , um, about laundry. And I love the way you talked about it's when we start to utilize those tools of assertiveness , um , aggression. And we were going to get into what we did, but like anger specifically , um, to start to impinge on other people's boundaries and start using them to , to take up more space than we need to take up, you know, that's when that, and that goes for everyone that that's when it becomes really toxic and , um , for

Speaker 4: 1:11:14

The collective good or even for our own good. And so learning how to find the sweet spot within that is such , um, it's hard. It's just hard. It's so hard. And I think that's hard. It takes, it takes, that's why I said it takes that kind of a differentiation between , um, abusive power and understanding of power, like centering ourselves in the power that in the ways that we're powerful, you know what I'm saying? Some of the ways that I'm powerful , uh, another person who, you know, has, you know, manifests or leans more toward the divine feminine would, you know, they'd be powerful in different ways that I'm powerful, but like that just gives us diversity. You know what I'm saying ? All these different things. And I think about the difference between assertion and aggression, I was like, aggression feels like , um, and I want to , I want to be mindful of distinguishing that because aggression is that forward motion of like distinguished in power. And though it doesn't always have to be toxic because sometimes you gotta push through the door when somebody just literally won't, or you're coming up against power, especially, or won't respect your boundaries or your humanity and all that. And assertion is like, I'm gonna let you know, I'm not to be fucked with aggression is like, you fucked with me. So now here we are. You know what I'm saying? That like this thing, which two power men so important. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So you have been using the term right. Relationship , um , quite a bit throughout this chat. Can you tell us what right relationship is and then get into Yazzie and black girl masculine? I'm so much enjoying this. Like any courses you have. I love when, when I say right relationship, I mean, working towards honest connection with the people that you care about that you consider community , um, uh, it means allowing ourselves to come together in our most powerful ways and supporting ourselves in the ways that we might fall short or not always know , um, how to be in those, in those spaces. You know? Um, so when I think about right relationships, especially among black people, I think about how we all experienced a particular kind of harm from whiteness, some of us different than others. And on that spectrum, we are all like in a place where we should be working toward what it means to fortify black community and black strength , um, whether it means supporting each other and our children to making sure I L does this straight , you know, for the rest of their life, you know what I'm saying? So I feel really passionately about constantly evolving with community so that we can show up in ways that feel , um, and manifest the strength of our communities. And that shit is hard because we different as hell and black . This is so diverse, you know what I'm saying? So it's hard and it doesn't feel good when we have to open up to spaces that, that don't always align with being politically correct or whatever. And that's why I'm like, we got to create what our gaze looks like in the middle . It's like, I got to know who I am against whiteness as a system and a construct. And I have to know who I am and how I'm powerful outside of the white gays . I'm not trying to impress a white man ever, like literally . So, so in that, in that I think that relationship is being able to see ourselves and also see ourselves in proximity to how we come up against and subordinate system. Yes. And then Yazzie is actually a , one of the ways that, you know, one of the things I created Walker black, real masculine came first in 2016. Um, it's a nonprofit organization that centers masculine , uh, women trans and non binary people. And specifically, because, you know, at first I saw black girl magic was popping back then. One of the things I saw was like a very high fan, kind of a media presence of a black girl magic. And I'm like at the time, you know, I saw a lot of my community being like, damn, like I don't see myself in it. And I felt the same way. I was like, I don't see myself. Like, am I not also worthy of this kind of, you know, rolling over black feminism. Um, am I also a part of the community that you want to defend or support in this guy ? And so I created this platform not to be divisive to it, but to add nuance to the conversation of it. And it's been really powerful. Um, and we open up conversations that are specific to masculine people because I do want , um, black masculine non-normative people to know that our masculinities are valid and it's not in proximity to male ones. And that there is nuance in our masculinity that are , that also doesn't exist , um, with people who have proximity to power like men. So when, when I started to roll this out, it was really important to me to create a space that allowed for the me too, stories of black masculine people to talk about toxic masculinity, to talk about how, because we're masculine and wear certain clothes or whatever. Um, the majority of dominant culture is that that doesn't mean we don't also experience sexual violence or experienced certain harms, you know, coming up against and understanding the structure of masculine privilege, all these things. So as I'm continuing to navigate it, my community has been so exceptional and just been rocking with me, you know, and it's been a sweet, sweet time. I'm just really grateful for how we've continued to shape. And re-imagine black masculinities , um, as a community and try to create what accountable masculinities can look like. And it's been beautiful. And then the pandemic as a pandemic kit, I sat at home and, you know, wanted to create some clothes for myself because it's hard to buy pants when your waist is a 28 and your hips, a 36. And I'm like all this stuff. So I started to randomly design some like , um, some clothing and then I posted it and then it was crazy. Everybody was like, yo, I paid for that right now, blah, blah, blah. So I deleted the post and I thought about it. I was like, yo, I shouldn't do, I should make this like a completely de gendered clothing line. And that's how Yazzie was born. I initially came up with the language of Yazzie because that's what I want to name my child, my future child who visits me often. Uh , so it's such a sweet child. Um, and when they visit me in my dream and just throughout the day, you know, I set up emails and I write them all the time and just like, think of them often. And so I named the clothing line after them. Um, and it's just been such a really sweet journey because I want to pay more attention to bodies rather than , uh , men's women's sections. I'm like, I don't want to have to go to a men's section any , any more than a gay man probably wants to go to a women's section to buy their clothes or whatever else I'm like. It don't have to be like that. Like we should know by this, this day and age, we should know that there are nuanced bodies and that gender energies even don't matter , don't discriminate on the bodies that they manifest in. So Jase was born and I rolled out preorders on the 29th and 10% of all sales will be going to immediately onto black families via cash payments , uh, um, that were impacted by COVID-19 things like that. Um, pre-orders end on the 12th and then we'll start rolling out that information for people to apply and all of that. So I feel really grateful overall for how the universe has been used in me. And I hope that I can continue to honor my platform and my community, even as my platform grows. So I'm just eternally grateful for the opportunity. Thank you for sharing. I want to plug in

Speaker 3: 1:20:08

The re-imagining black masculine future series that you did, because that's what, I don't know how it came to me though . Like, Oh, I was like, make it, everyone wants to do it. So I'll put a link to that for sharing the show notes. Thank you so much. That was , that was a really inspiring series. And I'm actually about to upload the caption videos too . So there'll be two plugins. It'll be the, the one, the original ones I did. And then since I didn't have access to the caption software, then, which I will going forward, I'm doing a second set of videos that I'll be posting this week on , um, on the actual, like with captions. So, you know, so that anyone listening knows that they can they'll have access for our , uh , hard of hearing community. Yeah. I, we we've , we've been talking about this since you two we're like, how do we get the caching software? So I'm going to have to hit you up. Oh yeah . Got you. Definitely. And thank you so much for that plug. That series was such a good time. I had, I had so much fun as you can see in the video. It was such a great time. Um, and I'm gonna put , um, the cash app background masculine in the show notes and links to pages, for sure, for sure. Um, and this is the first , uh , this is the second season of assessing community, but , um, this season we are doing a bi-pod celebration giveaway. So if you post on IgE and or Facebook, a picture of yourself , um, with , uh, like with anything to do with like what we talked about today , um , and you tag black girl masculine and FSC , um, your handle will be put in a drawing for a copy of love and rage by Lama Rado cause that book is, listen, y'all need it because that we feel is valid and we also need to sustain ourselves. And that book is so good for doing both feeling the rage and also survive in the rage. Absolutely. So, yes. Please post a photo or like your favorite quote , just talking about this particular episode. I am so grateful that we did this fallow . Like you are such a great time. Thank you for having me. Yeah, absolutely. And best of luck on Yazzie. My , uh, my kiddo meets me too in the spirit realm, so I , I see you. I see you Yazzie. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 1:22:51

That's it? Yo, that's our show big. Thank you.

Speaker 3: 1:22:55

It's a black dream escape for providing us with the intro and outro music for season two. We sincerely love your work and hope comes to us

Speaker 2: 1:23:06

All and big thank you to Vesta for producing our small but mighty podcast. This show is powered by the people made the abundance. Come back to you and spread like wildfire seeds . Community is a space to practice collective healing. We do this through workshops, body, and energy work, taro individual container building, and this podcast to learn more book us and support us, visit sensate community that come and follow us on the IgG or Facebook at send seed community bio

Speaker 1: 1:23:46

Come, come, come [inaudible] .